Dr Haesol Bae, an assistant professor in the Department of Educational Theory and Practice at the University at Albany School of Education, visits "The Engagement Ring." Dr Bae’s research brings together problem-based learning, artificial intelligence and teacher education in STEM. Specifically, Dr Bae is interested in how teachers can play a central role in supporting students while using emerging educational technology such as games and AI. She believes teachers who introduce some intentional “friction” into their classes’ AI learning may see better outcomes for their students.
Webpage for Haesol Bae
University at Albany homepage
UAlbany's AI Plus Initiative
National Academy for AI Instruction, press release from the American Federation of Teachers (AFT)
The Engagement Ring, Episode 33: A Little Intentional "Friction" in AI Learning Goes a Long Way Toward Improving Student Outcomes
[Lively, upbeat theme music plays as program host Mary Hunt introduces the program and plays excerpts from the program.]
ANNOUNCER /MARY HUNT:
Welcome to The Engagement Ring. Your connection to an ever-widening network of higher education professionals, scholars and community partners working to make the world a better place. I'm Mary Hunt. Today on the podcast…=
HAESOL BAE:
When we engage with AI, you know, this type of great technology, there's no friction. Everything is easy and fast and like, boom, boom, boom, you just click. You get what you want. And is that what we really want for, at least learning, you know, in teaching perspective? So how can we, you know, intentionally create some friction, but that can be productive to learning?
ANNOUNCER/MARY HUNT:
I’ll talk with Haesol Bae, assistant professor In the Department of Educational Theory and Practice at the University at Albany’s School of Education. Dr. Bae’s research focuses on how teachers can play a central role in supporting students while using emerging educational technology, such as games and AI.
HAESOL BAE:
A lot of news articles and news say, “Oh, teachers are going to be replaced by AI chat or GPT,” but I don't know. At least my students, they are not thinking that way. They are more realizing how important it is to have a good relationship in a human relationship, human communication with the students and AI, can you know, help with that process.
ANNOUNCER/HAESOL BAE:
Here's my conversation with Dr. Haesol Bae.
MARY HUNT:
Haesol, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.
HAESOL BAE:
Thanks so much for having me.
MARY HUNT:
We have a lot to talk about, a lot of interesting things, but I have to ask you first, because I think it is an absolutely beautiful name. Is there a story behind your name? Or what’s the origin of the name Haesol?
HAESOL BAE:
Oh, great. Haesol, yes. So, I'm from South Korea, and Haesol is a… it's kind of interesting. In Korea, we still, a lot of, majority of the people still use Chinese characters for their names, but mine doesn't have it, so it's just a pure Korean, like words and Hae means sun and Sol means pine tree. So, my dad made a name while looking at, like a beautiful garden, like sun shining, you know, sunshine through the pine tree. And then he made up, came up with this name, like, Haesol like, like always bright like sunshine and pine tree like, always fresh, and also makes like shady shades for, you know, the people who need to, you know, rest, I guess so. I love this name. My signature is like, draw sun and pine tree.
MARY HUNT:
That’s lovely. What a lovely compliment. Your dad must have just been tickled to have you. So, it's really nice. That's a lovely story. It's a beautiful name.
HAESOL BAE:
Thank you.
MARY HUNT:
Well, you joined the University a couple years back and were among a group of 27 scholars who had expertise in the area of AI who were hired to the faculty to support you Albany's AI Plus initiative, and I want to talk a little bit more about that. AI, the AI plus initiative is an effort at UAlbany where we're trying to bring introduction, content, training in AI across all disciplines, so that our students, when they graduate, are competitive in these emerging fields and have some familiarity, even if you don't expect that's something that is typical in your area of study, you're prepared and you're qualified to go into the workforce. So, tell me what is your particular area of interest and specialization expertise in terms of AI?
HAESOL BAE:
Yeah so, to the team I'm bringing AI from more like education perspective. I used to be a classroom teacher, and now I'm working as a professor here, and I am bringing the more like critical perspectives in this very tech-centric world, I want to say so when we are bringing this amazing great emerging technology, which is AI, but then we don't really have a lot of research done, or, you know, like, we don't really know there's, there's so much uncertainty about, like, how kids can, you know, learn from this or not, learn from this, and especially when you know this new technology is emerging just so fast. We want to make sure that you know we are doing the right thing, you know. So that's, the like, I don't know, effort that I am trying to bring right now.
MARY HUNT:
So you were a schoolteacher, what grades did you teach? What subject did you teach?
HAESOL BAE:
I was an ESL teacher back in South Korea. I was like from seventh to I mean, what second grade to sixth grade, and I was also a teacher trainer, so and then when I was… it was like almost 10 years ago, and then at that time, we were bringing lots of iPads to. classrooms. And then my principal was, hey, you are young, and you know, you maybe know how to do this. So, I had to come up with, you know, workshops and how to use iPads in classrooms, and what type of activities will be suitable, you know, better with using technology. And in my experience, you know, just using iPad doesn't mean it's always a better learning and better teaching. Lots of times, like, battery is not charged, like some like, iPads are missing and like people, you know, even though there was, like, you know, regulation and whatever, you know, kids always find a way to download different things that we don't want to introduce and so lots of things. So, I was very intrigued about that situation, and I was okay, okay, I'm going to quit, move to the U.S. And then I started my PhD journey that way.
MARY HUNT:
I was going to say, how did you get from the classroom into your PhD study? What made you know you wanted to dig deeper, or you wanted to study further? What drove you to that?
HAESOL BAE:
Yeah, so, you know. So, I'm trained as a learning sciences instruction design, but also, you know, but more focusing on, like how, you know, to integrate technology in classrooms. So that whole, that iPads experience, I wanted to actually study and investigate, you know, what this, you know, integrating technology means to us, and what can we do. And, while, like, very fortunately, you know, this AI booming, comes up, and now, okay, and then this AI+ Institute was a great opportunity for me to join and learn, you know, with colleagues and, you know, doing my own research, but also learn from other fields, you know, how they are thinking about, you know, AI, so I think it's been really great for me.
MARY HUNT:
Well, you know, it's interesting that you do bring the expertise or the experience of a teacher. You're a scholar and you're a teacher, so you really have that extra insight into what teachers need or may be asking or may be concerned about.
HAESOL BAE:
Right.
MARY HUNT:
What are the anticipated benefits of AI in the classroom for teachers and for students or is there evidence that says, I say they're anticipated, but you know, have we started to prove that these are benefits yet?
HAESOL BAE:
I mean, there's a lot of, like, surveys and, you know, going on around. And I did find some, you know, survey data. So, say, like, almost, like 50% people say, you know, AI reduces their admin workload because, you know, teachers are so busy they just want to offload some, you know, mundane tasks. And then AI can help with that, like rubrics, lesson planning, you know, also like adjusting reading levels, for example. You know, it's really tedious, and it can be really hard when you don't have enough time. But then AI can, like, okay, make this article to reading novel for, you know, like grade five or grade three, or who is learning English as a new language. You know, you can do all these adjustments really quick and really nice. So, you know, I think that's a really nice usage of AI in there.
MARY HUNT:
Does it lessen, though, the time that the teacher might be taking to do those things, himself or herself? I mean, does it lessen the interaction with the student that seems to be so important? We all remember our teachers who really, you know, we have teachers that we feel really helped us progress. I'm just curious what it does to the personal interaction between the teacher and the student if they're relying more on artificial intelligence.
HAESOL BAE:
So I think this is how the teachers see. So, I'm teaching also a master's course, and then I usually the students are in service teachers. So, I talk to them a lot.
MARY HUNT:
When you say in service, tell me what you mean by that.
HAESOL BAE:
Oh, in service means currently teaching.
MARY HUNT:
So they’re studying to be teachers, they're already teaching.
HAESOL BAE:
Exactly, yeah, because it's a master's degree. And then what they're saying is that because, you know, they can offload a lot of stuff, like I just said, a lot of news articles, teachers going be replaced. I don't know, at least my students, or I think you said, really like realizing how important it is to have a good relationship, you know, human relationship, human communication with the students and AI, can, you know, help that process if they can reclaim more, you know, productive time, you know, valuable time with those students then maybe that means they can spend more time with the students.
MARY HUNT:
So they're embracing it. We often hear people are fearful of jobs being replaced by AI or tasks that they want to do, or feel are important to their role. Do they see it as a tool? They don't see it as something that threatens their autonomy or their direction or leadership of a class then?
HAESOL BAE:
So, through my class, the final project is they have to design an — it's called AI-infused lesson plan. And then through that process, they do reflect on like, what really teaching like true, you know, good teaching is, what is good learning. They kind of think about the whole concept of teaching and learning and their pedagogy. And then you know, definitely there are certain aspects that AI can amplify. So, for example, you know, if you're teaching history class, then you know AI can act as a like history, historical like figure, so they can interview that person. And that's something you know that teachers cannot really like do it really quick. But you know, through AI, they can do that. So, there are lots of things that they can facilitate the learning and but then eventually, you know, designing the whole activities, and, you know, making decisions like when and how to use AI in what point that is all on to the teacher. So, you know, I think if the teachers learn how to use and how to all this like well enough, then I think they'll be, like, super powerful to, you know, integrate AI and make the learning really fun.
MARY HUNT:
How widespread is the use of AI in the classroom presently?
HAESOL BAE:
I think AI, it's such a complex like complicated to even like define. So, when we say how widespread it is like nowadays, when you use even Google search, there's always an AI support and, you know, up top first. So, does that mean we are using AI? I think we are. So, AI is actually pretty much like everywhere, you know, even like auto correction for spellings, suggesting the next word to use, you know, so, um, so in that sense, like, AI is just already there. But I think, like, according to the survey, the teacher, like, more than eight, like, I don't know, I did actually find more than 60% of teachers use AI tools to prepare their classes and, you know, lesson planning. But then I think there are two separate things. So, to prepare, you know, it's different than to use AI tools while teaching, you know, so using AI as like a teaching partner or collaborative partner, I don't know how much that is actually happening. I was trying to find but that data wasn't available at this point.
MARY HUNT:
When you say as a collaborative partner, do you mean teachers who are using it to sort of assess the level that their student is at, or how to personalize or individualized study?
HAESOL BAE:
For example, when the students are working on, like problem solving or inquiry-based learning, and then when there are 25 students and there's only one adult teacher, it's really hard for the teacher to like, go every group and hey, how's it going? What is your problem? It's really hard to do that. So now one of my project is to build a system, AI system, that can, you know, paired up with each group, so the AI can help the inquiry process, so that the, you know, the teachers, don't have to, I mean, they can, if they have time, but it's just like, they just have such a limited time to go every group, so the AI can maybe help manage the problem solving practices, or, you know, help gathering more evidence. So, I think AI can be used in a way that can help more thinking. But what I'm really worried about at this point is a lot of Chat GPT, you know, all the Gen AI tools are focusing on only, like efficiency, like how fast everything is, and like these videos on YouTube, they are are all like very short forms now. Whatever is more than a minute or two, it's too long to watch. So those, you know, I don't know those things are things that I think about a lot. So how can we intentionally build a tool that can slow down, you know, thinking process. You know, that's, that's something that I am currently working on right now.
MARY HUNT:
We've kind of, we've talked a little bit about some of the positives, but you're sort of starting to venture into some of the negatives.
HAESOL BAE:
Yes.
MARY HUNT:
What are some of the other cons of AI, or some of the other concerns about AI in the classroom?
HAESOL BAE:
Um, yeah. So just like I said, you know, there can be over reliance. And then once you are used to it, you know, it's hard to say no to that. You know that scaffolded thinking, so that, that's the article that I wrote as well, like how you know, AI can take away, you know, those productive struggles that you know they are supposed to go through to learn, but you know, oh, AI can help step by step. Oh, is this what you mean? Okay, how about this? There's always like some guidance in between thinking steps. And sometimes I wonder, like, do we need that much of support? Do we not have, you know, much of trust in our human beings. That's sometimes I think about so those like thinking. And also, everything is just so fast. So that's something that I am concerned about. And also, the other thing is that, how this is very interesting that this whole, like AI and education is heavily led by ed tech companies. So, these big companies, you know, putting a lot of money to develop these and then try to, of course, sell. So now, you know, I see, I do meet a lot of teachers. They do sometimes complain that, oh, there was a teacher professional development workshop. So, I go there, and eventually it's just like, you know, selling their stuff. They're not really worried about or concerned about, like, what we really need locally, you know, how we can support these specific students, like, pedagogically, you know, but they're just trying to sell their stuff. And then, and it's really interesting, because if the district decided to buy one product, then all the teachers will have to use that product. And then, of course, the students will use that product. So that whole you know, situation.
MARY HUNT:
Is there discussion, talk processes in, you know, under a way to establish guidelines for teachers or districts? Is it coming from the state or the federal government, or what's, what's sort of the hierarchy of, how do we do this? How do we roll this out, and how do we know that it's working, that the advantages are outweighing the cons?
HAESOL BAE:
I really don't know. I mean, I do see a lot of efforts going on, like through certain districts or even, like classroom level or school, and some states do publish their own, you know, like bill of rights or some sort of like policy. So, each state is publishing too, and I know the Trump administration also released some of the guidelines as well. But it's really interesting how AI is also politicized, because there was a like website that was, you know, published through the previous government, and then, because I was using that as, like, how, you know, government is looking at AI in education, so I was using that website. But then, as soon as the government has been changed, that website was just like, not found, you know. So, I am really, like, curious on how and why AI is also very politicized and like. Is this okay? You know, so lots of things.
MARY HUNT:
Yeah, it's unfolding, most definitely. You know, it's interesting too. I know New York State, soon, schools would be making sure students don't have access to their phones during the course of the day, and people are always saying kids get too much screen time at home, in school, wherever they are, you always see youth, oftentimes walking down the street, looking at their telephone. So are we sending a different message to them when in the classroom we're introducing more screens or more technology or quicker ways to learn things, and yet we're saying, don't, don’t, you know, at home, you can't watch your videos, or we're going to take your phones away at school. I mean, is that a mixed message? How would you respond to that?
HAESOL BAE:
Yeah, great question. I do have a five-year-old, and that's something that I'm very concerned about as well, and now I think it's time to really deeply think about when we say technology or screen time, or AI or social media, you know, like, I think these are all like, different things and but then sometimes we just wrap up, you know, like, oh, technology or screen time. I mean, we could do that maybe, like, five years ago, but not anymore. And when we are saying, like, no phones and no social media during class time, actually, I agree with that. I did read, you know, a book called, like, The Anxious Generation. That book did also influence a lot. And so, you know, according to that book, they, you know, the students like because they have a phone, even during recess, they don't talk to each other. They just look at, you know, oh, what messages, what notifications do I have? So, you know, I think we still have a control to mitigate, or, you know, shape how we humans can behave. I don't think we're late, but I think we're at a very important time. I think it's our adults’ responsibility to regulate and what not to or what to amplify. And I think human interaction, like collaboration, like human connection, that's something that I really think that we should amplify, and to do that we can definitely, like phones can be in, you know, locker at least, like, I don't know, like, at least, like, five, six hours a day and then, but then using computer to like the tools that I mentioned, like AI or whatever tool that can help them with learning, I think it's okay, as long as there is a true, great intention to it.
MARY HUNT:
Intentionality, yeah, that's very important that you don't lose sight of that. Is it possible to build their collaborative skills and their social skills in the classroom when you're individualizing study for them, though? I mean, can they still be working on group projects that may be facilitated through AI? I mean, is there an inconsistency there? Or no? You think there's a way to still build those skills?
HAESOL BAE:
I think so, yeah. But then again, the intentionality is really important. So the tools like Khanmigo, Chat, GPT, a lot of these Gen AI tools are very individualized, and you got the right point, like, with those tech tools, no, they're going be more focused on, like, oh, you know, I'm going just, like, talk this, you know, through this thing, and I will learn. And it's a personalized, individualized so this is great, and that's one of the benefits that a lot of people believe, you know, AI can offer. But I don't think that is always true. I think it's important to actually create an environment that the students can learn from each other, and also kind of argue, I don't know, like, you know, there are different opinions and different perspectives, and then how can we create that? And then that's the part that I'm actually working on. So, the term that I am, I try to, I don't know, spread is a “productive friction.” So, when you, when we engage with AI, you know this type of great technology, there's no friction. Everything is easy and fast and like, boom, boom, boom. You just click. You get what you want. And is that what we really want for, at least learning, you know, and teaching perspective. So how can we, you know, intentionally create some friction, but that can be productive to learning, and then that, and then through and then so there are a few things that I mentioned, and then one of them is to make the work collaborative, because when you have to, you know, share and negotiate with others, definitely there is some friction going on but then that can definitely slow down the process and learn through that process. So that is something that I am really working hard. But like you said, it's … we have to be very intentional when we design and develop the tool.
MARY HUNT:
Can AI be rolled out in classrooms at a relatively reasonable cost, or is it a phenomenal expense to introduce these kinds of technologies into the classroom?
HAESOL BAE:
I think for AI, it's all about good internet connection and the good superpower computers. But I really do think we have abundant resources in this world. I mean, at least in this country, and it's just how we distribute and then how we think about equity.
MARY HUNT:
Do you see AI as a technology that can be beneficial to children with special needs and special ed students.
HAESOL BAE:
Yeah, we've seen some teachers who are very excited about, you know, oh, this can be used this way and that, oh, this can engage these students who have spectrum, you know, they find like, different ways to incorporate this technology and it, and I love learning from my students, because I'm, I'm more like introducing this very general idea, but then each teacher is looking, you know, like, oh, this can be used in this very specific context my local, you know, students need and this is amazing. So, it's really fun and a great experience for me too.
MARY HUNT:
In July, I think it was, there was an article that Microsoft, Open AI and Anthropic are working with the American Federation of Teachers to establish a national academy of AI. I think it was based in New York City, where they thought they could accommodate the needs or address the needs of several thousand teachers, and teachers are involved in the development of the content and the tools, I guess. I can't speak to that. I don't know. I just know it's a new venture. Thoughts on that? Do you think this might meet the needs of some teachers? Are you concerned about, as you mentioned, some of the technology companies involved? Or do you think there can be a fair and equitable and really productive partnership between technology companies and instructors? What are your thoughts on that?
HAESOL BAE:
Yeah, I think the intention is great. I also just read from Times Union that does say only half of local high school students can take computer science course because the, you know, lots of reasons, but one of the reasons is there are not many teachers who can teach these things. And I think this type of initiative can be very, very beneficial. So, the intention, and you know, the goal, is great. But then again, like, I'm sure these companies are good, and they have intention to, like, you know, they have a lot of money to contribute back to the society, and maybe this is one of the ways that they chose to do that. So, I think that's great. But this, this is, you know, definitely led by these big companies. And then I wonder, and I couldn't really find good information, but how you know this, this initiative will go like unfold, and also, is there any evaluation? Or how do we know that you know this? So, I just want to know a little bit more about this, and how are we and then… it's based in New York City, right? So, there is always more initiatives, or like workshops or whatever opportunities in New York City. A lot more in the city than like Albany, for example,
MARY HUNT:
Sure.
HAESOL BAE:
So I am curious how they're going to also tackle that, you know.
MARY HUNT:
Yeah, getting the training to the teachers where they need it is important, and how we do that, and exactly who’s in charge of doing that, yeah.
HAESOL BAE:
Yeah, are there any people, yeah, are there any people from, like, the Department of Education, or any professors, or I just don't know. That's something that I'm curious about.
MARY HUNT:
So what's your next study? It sounds like you've got a lot of ideas for upcoming topics to look into. What's on your wish list, or what do you think you're going to delve into next?
HAESOL BAE:
So I'm very interested in, like, you know, like we touched a little bit, but the teacher, how they shape their teacher professional identity when they engage in, you know, AI tools and so that's something that my team is working on, and also how they actually design their courses and how it's implemented in each classroom. So, we haven't been to their classrooms just yet, but we are ready to, because we have some partner teachers now, and now, you know, we can keep talking to them and actually go into their classroom and how students, you know, react to it. And it's really exciting. And also, we are reframing AI literacy framework. So, so far, we are saying, when we say AI literacy, we say how to understand AI, how to use AI, and how to evaluate AI, which is great, but now my team is working on like but just evaluating isn’t enough. How can we more, you know, be proactive about, you know, which AI tool is, you know, biased, or, how can we be more, have more agency in us as a user? So, it's really new. I don't know. So that's something that I'm very excited about.
MARY HUNT:
Just talk for a minute more about when you say, a teacher developing his or her identity related to AI. What do you mean by that?
HAESOL BAE:
So I think it's really fascinating to see that because, or thanks to the AI technology now we are realizing, like, what really, truly we want to do as a teacher, or what really means learning so they are, I don't know it's like going back to almost like, the really ample like foundation about their teacher, as you know, and profession. But also, you know, it's an identity that they bring. So, if they thought, you know, oh, teacher is just to deliver a content knowledge, then it's not going work anymore with, you know, this AI tool. So they are, they're thinking very hard to like, oh, what's going be my role in this scene. And then it's really interesting that my research is finding that through this AI literacy course, they are, their identity is even expanded a little bit. So, it's not just technology that they're going to integrate and introduce to the students, but also how to introduce, how to use them, and also how to guide the students to be a good, responsible user of AI, and that is their role as well. So, it's almost, it almost sounds like a human I mean, a civic engagement. So, AI, it's not just like computer or calculator, that's what a lot of people say. But I think AI is more than a calculator or computer. It's a social technology that, you know, AI is built around what human has been, you know, built so it's very societal, social like growing or changing something. I don't know what it is. You know, this is very different technology than other technology. That's how I see. And the teachers are very fascinated, concerned. There are lots of different profiles that I can see, yep.
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MARY HUNT:
I can imagine. We'll look forward to your future research, and I hope you’ll come back and talk more about it.
HAESOL BAE:
Yeah, yep, that sounds great.
MARY HUNT:
Thanks, Haesol. It was a pleasure to have you.
HAESOL BAE:
Thank you.
ANNOUNCER/MARY HUNT:
Dr Haesol Bae is an assistant professor in the Department of Educational Theory and Practice at the University at Albany School of Education. Dr Bae’s research brings together problem-based learning, artificial intelligence and teacher education in STEM. Specifically, Dr Bae is interested in how teachers can play a central role in supporting students while using emerging educational technology such as games and AI. For more information on Dr. Bae’s work, visit the resource page for this podcast online at the dash engagement dash ring dot simplecast dot com.
The Engagement Ring is produced by the University at Albany's Office for Public Engagement. If you have questions or comments or want to share an idea for an upcoming podcast, email us at UAlbany O P E at Albany dot E D U.
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