University at Albany Center for Technology in Government Director Ramon Gil-Garcia and Research Director Mila Gascó-Hernández discuss the role public libraries are playing in empowering communities to help ensure that emerging artificial intelligence technologies develop in ways that benefit everyone, not just a select few.
J. Ramon Gil-Garcia, Professor, Department of Public Administration & Policy, Rockefeller College of Public Affaris and Policy, and Director, Center for Technology in Government (CTG)
Mila Gascó-Hernández, Associate Professor, Department of Public Administration & Policy, Rockefeller College of Public Affairs and POlicy, and Research Director, CTG
Study: Empowering Communities: Public Libraries, Inclusive Civic Engagement and Artificial Intelligence
Center for Technology in Government at the University at Albany (CTG)
From the UAlbany News Center, Sept 28, 2023: CTG UAlbany Examines Libraries’ Role in AI
The Engagement Ring, Episode 39:
How Public Libraries Are Leveling the AI Playing Field
[Lively, upbeat theme music plays as program host Mary Hunt introduces the program and plays excerpts from the program.]
ANNOUNCER/MARY HUNT:
Welcome to The Engagement Ring, your connection to an ever-widening network of higher education professionals, scholars and community partners working to make the world a better place. I'm Mary Hunt. Today on the podcast…
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
We are trying to really understand the role of public libraries in involving citizens in AI initiatives.
ANNOUNCER/MARY HUNT:
I'll speak with University at Albany Center for Technology in Government Director Ramon Gil-Garcia and Research Director Mila Gascó-Hernández about the important role public libraries are playing in empowering communities to help ensure that emerging artificial intelligence technologies develop in ways that benefit everyone, not just a select few.
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
Public Libraries are trusted and safe spaces, and so the community feels safe and feels they can go there and can be open and can participate openly and without fear in the different discussions that the library can facilitate or that the library can organize.
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
We are going to have a set of recommendations for libraries to be more effective in terms of helping people to learn about AI, but also to get involved in some of these initiatives and basically help the process, you know, in terms of benefits, but also potential risks that these may bring to their communities.
ANNOUNCER/MARY HUNT:
Here's my conversation with Dr Ramon Gil-Garcia and Dr Mila Gascó-Hernández…
MARY HUNT:
Mila and Ramon. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
Thank you, Mary.
[Music fades out.]
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
Thank you, Mary.
MARY HUNT:
Your work in this project is done through the Center for Technology in Government at the University at Albany. What is the Center for Technology in Government? We call it CTG here at U Albany. I'm sure a lot of folks that you work with around the country, and globally, know it as CTG as well. Tell us what the mission of CTG is.
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
So basically, CTG is a research center that does both academic research and also applied research and consulting. And the idea is to really help governments to better understand how to use emerging technologies. And you know, within our mission is also, you know, the idea of co-production. So, we don't like to work as vendors in which, you know, just tell us what you want, and then we will deliver. No, no, no. We really want to partner with them and really try to do some of the analysis with them and then be able to produce something that is useful to them. We have been doing this for 30 years now, more than 30 years now, and we are, as you know, now, part of the University of Albany, and we have projects that are very, very local. You know, we work with the cities around the Capital Region. We also have projects that are more state or national, like the one that we are describing in this in this presentation. And we also have collaborations with colleagues from around the world in which we do research with them, you know, in several topics, including artificial intelligence.
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
We have also partnered in the past with several international organizations: the World Bank, the Inter-American Development Bank, United Nations. So that has allowed us to go to different countries and study and support their digital transformation processes.
MARY HUNT:
Your research acknowledges the emerging and evolving role and importance of AI in our society, but in your research, you also point out some risks that are posed by AI. What is it about AI that gives you the most pause?
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
I would say that one of the main concerns that I think we have, and everybody has, is the bias and discrimination that AI can result in, the use of AI can result in. And so AI is supposed to have all these benefits. But of course, if in the end these benefits are only for a small part of the population, that is not fair, that is not just, and it brings up important risks. I also think that because AI is a technological tool and it is a tool that is not so well understood by citizens, there is another important risk that it has to do with being left out. So we do know there is a digital divide that has always been there, and that technologies broaden the digital divide. I do think that in the case of AI the risk of broadening more and more the digital divide is very important, and so that risk of being left out of what's going on, because everything is about AI, but then not so many people do understand what AI is about. So I would, I would name those two: bias and discrimination and the risk of being left out.
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
And I agree with Mila. One of the things that we should pay attention to is that it's not just the algorithms themselves, because some people, you know, really pay attention to the algorithms and why they are, you know, doing the job that they should be doing, but it's really the data that we use for AI. We use data historical data, and sometimes that historical data also has the biases. They already are there. And so if we are just using that data to train the models we are going to end up also with biased decisions.
MARY HUNT:
One of the tools that you and other scholars have pointed out is a method, perhaps, for dealing with some of these risks, for mitigating some of these risks Is public engagement? What do you mean by that? How can public engagement and what type of public engagement might be appropriate for addressing these areas of concern?
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
So basically, the idea is that some of these risks are even more profound when we are talking about vulnerable populations. And so what we think is that, and other scholars have said, is that including, you know, these people in the decisions about AI — could be the design, could be the implementation, could be the evaluation — can help to mitigate some of these problems. And so, and so, that's what we are trying to do, you know, within this project, you know, really trying to understand how people can be more involved in the decisions about AI, how to use AI, and we think that public libraries might be a good space to start doing this.
MARY HUNT:
Yeah, I’m going to mention the title: Empowering Communities, Public Libraries, Inclusive Civic Engagement and Artificial Intelligence. You've identified libraries as the resource, or a central convener, vehicle for having these discussions about AI, and I don't know, leading to policy or recommendations. Talk about why public libraries are the right tool for addressing some important issues related to AI.
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
So I think that we turn to public libraries, first of all, because we have been working with public libraries for a long time. Before this project, we had one project on the role of public libraries in open governments, and then a second project on the role of public libraries in developing smart cities and communities. And so we realize that public libraries are much more that places that can lend books and, you know, yeah, books related spaces, right. They can do so many things. Our projects have shown it, but also the practices in libraries have shown it too. If you look going back to the digital divide and the gap in access and use of technology, if you look at that for many, many years, public libraries have been a place where people can go to learn about technology and to learn how to use a technology. AI is a technology, after all, so public libraries can still play that role when it comes to AI. But also for us it is very important, and this is what we've realized with our research, that public libraries are trusted and safe spaces, and so the community feels safe and feels they can go there and can be open and can participate openly and without fear in the different discussions that the library can facilitate or that the library can organize, even when governments or private companies are offering training courses. For example, people, citizens feel safer in public libraries.
MARY HUNT:
Are people going to libraries anymore? We're all so reliant on digital technology that we can use from our homes or our offices. What kind of usage are libraries seeing? Are people really still actually physically going in person?
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
They do. Yes, they do. So, as we were saying before, public libraries are now doing much more than books. So for example, in terms of lending, there are many devices and many things they are lending. There are public libraries which lend even seeds that you can use to grow plants and flowers, and then you bring the flower back to the library, right. So, so they're doing much more and trying to address the interest of their communities in many different ways. Also, it is true that not everybody goes to libraries with the same intensity. We see a lot of children in libraries, and we also see a lot of seniors. And actually, in our project, we interviewed and we did focus groups with participants in programs, and we did find many seniors that wanted to learn about AI and that wanted to do something about AI, so people do go to libraries because their offerings are much broader than they were a few years ago, but also the intensity of you know, attending programs and participating in programs changes depending on the needs and the stage in life that people are at.
MARY HUNT:
Tell me a little bit about the methodology behind the project. What were the questions that you were setting out to address, and how did you enlist the collaboration of the libraries? Who were the libraries that participated?
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
So basically, as you mentioned the title, we are trying to really understand the role of public libraries in involving citizens in AI initiatives. You know how public libraries those safe spaces for citizens can be to be able to tell more about these initiatives and how they may benefit them, but also, they may affect them negatively and so and so. That was kind of the idea. So, for that, we did a multi-method approach, so we have interviews with the library staff. We also have focus groups with patrons, and we finally did a national survey in which we asked people about their experience in libraries, their trust in libraries, and how willing they would be to actually engage in these types of AI initiatives, if the library was involved in some way. That was kind of the main idea.
MARY HUNT:
How did you choose the libraries? Which libraries did you work with?
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
So we are partnering with the Urban Libraries Council. It is an association of libraries here in the United States and Canada, libraries which are in urban areas, and they had a lot of experience in how libraries are using AI and are working around AI. So, we were guided by what they already know about public libraries and AI, but we also conducted a best practices or current practices report and searched through Google public libraries that were actively using AI or offering programs around AI. So, we identified around 100 public libraries, and as I said, with the help of ULC, we came down to a few. We looked for several things that we wanted the libraries to have. For example, clearly, the libraries had to be doing something about AI. But also, we wanted some kind… we know that qualitative methods are not representative, but we wanted some sort of geographical distribution across the country. We also were looking at the communities because this is a project not only about public engagement in general, but inclusive public engagement, as Ramon was very well explaining before. So, we wanted the communities to be diverse so we could really observe inclusion, right. So, we had these several criteria, and we finally ended up with four public libraries: Queens Public Library here in New York; Schaumburg District Public Library, this is a public library in the state of Illinois; Palo Alto City Public Library in California; and Frisco Public Library in Texas.
MARY HUNT:
What was the timeline for the study?
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
It is a three-year study. So, we started about two years and a half ago, two years and a half ago, and we started, actually with the interviews, then we went on to the focus groups, and then basically the national survey. And we tried to use some of our findings from the each of the stages to integrate those and to really try to understand different perspectives from the other methods.
MARY HUNT:
Now the fun part, what are you finding? What are people telling you? What can report at this point? I know you're still a little way to go to the finish line. But what are you finding so far?
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
We are trying to conceptualize public engagement, or civic engagement, in a very comprehensive way, in such a way that there are stages. And so basically, we have a first stage that is awareness. So, if people are not aware of what they can do, they cannot participate. The second one is skills. If they don't have the skills and the knowledge necessary to be able to engage, they will not engage because in the case of AI, for example, is not something that everybody knows. You know, a lot of people are using it, but that is not enough sometimes for them to be able to say something meaningful in terms of, again, design, implementation, evaluation about these initiatives. And the final one is actual engagement, you know, really being willing and able to say something about a specific initiative. You know, to say if some of the aspects of an initiative are going to be beneficial to the community or are going to be harmful to the community, and what they might be able to do to avoid some of those problems. So, these are the three stages, and what we found is that libraries currently are actually very well equipped with the first two stages. You know, they are making a lot of events that make people aware of everything AI, you know, from the technology itself to the potential uses, the potential benefits, the harms, the risks, you know, all of that. And also, they have specific programs to build capacity, you know, to help people to use AI in meaningful ways. But they are still early, you know, in that final stage in which they can be the spaces for the people to engage in this type of initiatives.
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
I think that beyond that we are also finding that the public libraries are facing some challenges in order to be able to transition to this third stage of public engagement. And these challenges are not new for public libraries. We're always talking about resources… resources, not only in terms of money, but also in terms of time of the staff. In several of our interviews with library staff, they were also saying it is expected that we have to know about every new thing that comes up, and now it is a time of artificial intelligence. So, on top of doing everything else that we are already doing, we do also need to do something about AI. So also, in terms of time and ability the constraints are similar to what public libraries are always facing. So, it is not… nothing surprising that we are finding when it when it comes to these challenges. The other thing that it is also important, as Ramon was describing, this transition through the three stages, is that they are not only early when it comes to public engagement, but they are also not taking into account inclusion so much in the first two stages. So, the type of programs and services they are offering are at an entry level, so to say, training or doing events about AI, benefits of AI, risks of AI, some coding courses for kids, some makerspaces kids for youth, but they're not really addressing inclusion in this program. So, one of our recommendations is not only to start thinking broader about programming in terms of engagement, but also to try to include different members of the community in the in the different programs.
MARY HUNT:
How are the libraries preparing their staff to deliver this kind of programming and knowledge. Where are they getting their training, or who are they working with so they're proficient.
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
There is a lot of diversity in the level of knowledge that the different staff has. And they have sent their staff… some of them only have sent their staff to some basic courses. But what's happening in most libraries is that they are partnering with someone else who are the ones delivering the courses. Consultants often take experts and universities, and so the library staff are not delivering the courses themselves. They are in charge of the logistics and organizing, planning, maybe designing the course, but then it's eventually delivered by someone else.
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
And I totally agree with Mila. That's the case in most libraries. There are a few exceptions, you know, like Palo Alto, for example, you know, in which they have a couple of people that are in the digital services unit that they know about AI, and they know about different technologies, you know, they have robotics courses, and they have drones, you know, and things like that. But they are the exception. I would say that what Mila is saying is the majority, the majority of them, they are kind of the convening place, but they are really working with many partners that have the knowledge and that can help them to know how to deliver these types of courses.
MARY HUNT:
Now, the feedback that they're getting at the libraries and the information that you're gaining through your research, what will happen with that information? Will that impact policy, regulation going forward, advocacy? What will the impact of the information that you're gaining through the research be?
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
Well, I think it depends how we think about it. So, we can give you an example of our previous project. So basically, what we ended up doing as part of the results of the project was a kit for libraries, a toolbox, we call it, and so basically, they can take that toolbox and they can see what they can do in terms of in… that previous project was about smart cities, so basically what they can do in terms of marketing, what they can do in terms of specific activities, what they can do in terms of how to engage citizens and things like that. So as I said before, we are still ongoing with this project, but I think, and Mila may have a different opinion, that we are going in a similar direction, you know, that at the end we are going to have a set of recommendations for libraries to be more effective in terms of helping people to learn about AI but also to get involved in some of these initiatives and basically help the process, you know, in terms of benefits, but also potential risks that these may bring to their communities.
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
Yeah, I completely agree with Ramon. I am going to be a little more ambitious. I think that this is what we're looking for in the short term, to engage libraries with a vision in the long term, that they will be able to offer more programs, and therefore bridge that gap in society, engage more people, and, as a final result, address the risks and harms of AI. So that that would be, eventually our vision for the project.
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
I really like that, and actually we think that it's possible because the pieces are there, Mary. So, it's not that they are not there, it's just that sometimes they are disconnected. So, for example, most libraries have a specific unit that is about public engagement, and they are doing things, but they are not about AI. And then they have also a unit that is about technology, and they are doing things about AI, but they are not engaging with the public. So, the pieces are there. It's just that they need to put them together and really have that vision.
MARY HUNT:
Yeah, that's important. That is such an issue with so many organizations — the coordination of information.You know, it's interesting, correct me, if I'm wrong about this, but it seems in the United States, there really is no centralregulator for AI. Is that correct?Or is there a central source that will be laying down regulations or policies related to AI? Or are each one of these kinds of organizations — libraries, businesses — making their own decisions, processes related to AI on their own? I mean, where's the guidance coming from?
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
It is correct that there is no central regulator. As it happened before with data, and in the end, AI is based on data, so there is no central regulator for data. There is no central regulator for AI, generally speaking. That doesn't mean that there haven’t been a few pieces of legislation or a few pieces of regulation saying certain things about AI, but regulating us for example, what we are seeing in the European Union, with the EU AI Act that we don't have here In the U.S. Several organizations we do know a little more about government are reacting in different ways. Many state governments, some local governments as well, are coming up with their own guidelines and their own legislation. In the case of public libraries, they do not really have a lot of guidelines. I am doing a project with one of my PhD students. She's a librarian, and she's interested in understanding guidelines to use AI within public libraries across the U.S. We know there are more than 5,000 public libraries because of our previous research, and after looking for several months and trying many sources, we have only been able to find 10 libraries with guidelines about AI.
MARY HUNT:
Well, it seems that you are looking for a really important voice in this whole process that maybe has been lost or hasn't been, I don't know, reached out to — the citizens. What do they think about AI, and what are their fears and their concerns? And, you know, what are they looking forward to? How do they think it might improve their life, their work? Seems like nobody's been asking that question. It seems like we're talking about businesses and what their opinions and perspectives are in government. But this seems novel, that people are actually asking the public. Is that so? Are there other studies? Are there other… is there other research being done that's asking regular citizens, “How do you feel about this? This is going to affect your life in a big way and the future in a big way. What are your thoughts and concerns and recommendations?
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
Yeah, I think that we are not alone. You know, in that regard, you know there are other scholars that are also interested in what citizens are thinking about and how they may feel about AI. And I think that in general, I would say that citizens are cautiously hopeful. You know, they see that there are some potential advantages of using AI in their lives. But also, I think that they see the risks. They see the risk in many senses, you know, in terms of a loss of jobs, but also in terms of energy, in terms of water, in terms of many other things that also AI is bringing and so and so I think that there is at least some people in the academic community who are interested in really uncovering those, because those are not things that these big tech corporations are going to tell us easily. You know, for them, this is still their main business, and they really want this to work. But at the end, there are going to be also potentially big negative effects on certain communities. And so that's, I think that's part of what we are trying to understand, you know. If there is a way for these communities to be empowered to be able to say something about that, and again, going back to our public libraries, that public libraries might be the space to do that
MARY HUNT:
Absolutely. What has surprised you most in your research to date, in this project, and what has encouraged you most?
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
That's a great question. I think that what keeps surprising me when it comes to public libraries is everything they do now also when it comes to AI. So this happened to us in our previous projects that we were oh, we have a great idea public libraries can, you know, fill this space for smart cities, for open government, and then we started looking at what public libraries are currently doing, and it's like, okay, they are already doing this. So, we didn't have, you know, the great idea. The same with AI. When we when we put together the current practices report, and we were looking at these 100 plus public libraries, we realized they were already doing stuff about AI. So, it's not surprising anymore, but it is at the same time surprising that these are, most of the time, organizations with very few resources, and yet they are at the front of any innovation that is coming up. So, for me, it keeps surprising me and provoking admiration, right?
MARY HUNT:
I think that's interesting, because I think of a public library as an old-fashioned resource. We’ve lost so many of our old-fashioned institutions, or they've been replaced, but it seems like the library just keeps on going on. It’s a critical part of our communities, and hopefully they're going to be here. They're not going anywhere. How about you, Ramon, what surprised you and what has encouraged you?
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
I was going to say, and that's the part that is encouraging for me. So, I think that we have been in libraries. We have known more of traditional services that they offer. We have also learned about the nontraditional and more emergent services that they offer. And I think that what is encouraging for me is that it seems that libraries are adaptable, that they are going to be with us for a long time. And I think that this is important because of what Mila was talking about before, about inequalities. So, I think that libraries are still playing a very important role in terms of inequalities, not only digital inequalities, you know, but just access to any type of information any type of knowledge know that we may need in our daily lives. And I think that the fact that libraries are adapting, and that they are able to incorporate some of these new trends into their programs and services, I think it's encouraging because that, at least in my mind, that is telling us that they are going to be with us for a long time, and they are going to keep doing what they are doing at this point, which is trying to keep everybody in some way involved or engaged in this type of programs and services. You know, it could be related to a specific technology like AI, or could be just more in general, you know, a space for the community to be able to do things together or do things by themselves, but still, you're being part of this community.
MARY HUNT:
What do you hope the impact of this research will be ultimately,
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
I think that it's a very similar to what Mila said before. You know, I think that at the end we hope that citizens are able to engage in more meaningful ways in decisions about AI, in such a way that they can actually not only understand what is happening but also influence, you know, the final results. So, to give you a sense, it might be some AI initiative that, in theory is very good, you know, for economic development or for businesses, but might be affecting you know, some of the more vulnerable communities, you know or populations in that community. And so, I think our hope is that at some point that is something that they are aware of and that they have mechanisms for them to be able to do something about those situations.
[Music fades in.]
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
I completely agree with Ramona. I would also say not only being able to say or to provide an opinion but as we were talking about yesterday, engaging in co-creation processes of devices, tools, applications that that are based on AI, and maybe with their feedback, with their input, that application can make sure that the output and the decision made by the application is not biased. So not only providing, you know, feedback, like in a town hall, which we do believe, and that's one of our examples, public libraries could also host, but also engaging more physically, if you will, in the co-creation of AI based tools. I also would add, and you were talking about universities and colleges, and one of our librarians here at the University Libraries a couple of weeks ago asked me about this project asked me, “Why aren't you doing anything in academic libraries?” And I said, well, because, you know, we are focused on government, and public libraries are kind of a local government agency. But he said, “This is very interesting for us as well.” So maybe with this project further impact could also have public libraries as an example of a type of library but the programs and the offerings might very well be extended to other types of libraries as well that could help the community to get engaged. Here maybe it's about faculty and staff and students, right. But still, that's the community. So maybe being an example and having further impact by engaging other types of libraries in this endeavor would be also very nice.
MARY HUNT:
Absolutely. Well, best of luck as you continue your research, and we'll look forward to the final recommendations and learning more about it. Thank you both Ramon and Mila. Thanks for being my guests.
MILA GASCÓ-HERNÁNDEZ:
Thank you, Mary.
J. RAMON GIL-GARCIA:
Thank you for inviting us.
ANNOUNCER/MARY HUNT:
J. Ramon Gil-Garcia is a professor of Public Administration and Policy and the director of the Center for Technology in Government at the University at Albany. Mila Gascó-Hernández is the research director at the Center for Technology in Government and an associate professor in the Department of Public Administration and Policy at UAlbany’s Rockefeller College to learn more about Dr. Gil Garcia and Dr. Gascó-Hernández's research, including their current study, Empowering Communities, Public Libraries, Inclusive Civic Engagement and Artificial Intelligence, visit the resource page for this podcast at the engagement dash ring dot simplecast dot com. The engagement ring is produced by the University at Albany's Office for Public Engagement. If you have questions or comments or want to share an idea for an upcoming podcast, email us at UAlbany O P E at Albany dot edu.